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Angie Abdilla Auto-transcribed by with minor edits by James Parker

Joel Stern (00:00:00) - It would be great if you, if you could introduce yourself and give a bit of background to the work that you do and how you came to sort of think about advanced technologies through it, through the prism of, of indigenous culture and knowledge.

Angie Abdilla (00:00:14) - Uh, so, um, so I’m a Palawa woman. So my, uh, my mob come from the North Eastern parts of Tasmania, uh, also, um, we have a more recent history in the Northwest of Tasmania, but, um, uh, so we I’ve been living here in Sydney for most of my adult life, but I go back home regularly. And I guess, um, the reason why I became quite, uh, intrigued with technology and, and started to develop a much closer relationship with it and a working relationship is because as a filmmaker for many years, I was, uh, seeing how the way we tell stories. So originally, you know, in the, from the rectangle know cinema to the square TV, and then, and then this thing, internet and content transmedia storytelling and, and con you know, our films and media becoming content really, I guess, started me thinking about how these, um, these transitions in the way we tell stories and those shape and format of those stories was changing.

Angie Abdilla (00:01:27) - So radically quickly in the broader spectrum of time, those transitions between cinema and broadcast media were actually quite pronounced, you know, they weren’t, they happened over a much longer period of time. And so I was really interested in how digital technology was creating these fundamental shifts in ways that were really, um, exciting for me. Like I started seeing this realm of possibility. I remember the very first website that I, that I came across was by this Russian artist years and years ago when I was, and there was, there was no way in, you had to, it was almost like a galaxy, which, um, you had to find the right star constellation to enter into this wormhole. It was really great. And then, you know, once you’re in, it was, it was this incredible world of discovery. And so, you know, of course it’s a far cry to the way that, um, web platforms are designed these days.

Angie Abdilla (00:02:04) - But what I saw was this incredible opportunity to, to imagine a different way that we could inhabit, uh, a liminal space, a liminal space to connect and to share stories and to share ideas and experiences. And so it was kind of during that time as well, like, you know, there’s between like 20, 25 years ago that, um, the very first, I guess, tests around with around VR were also being explored and it wasn’t cold VR back then. Uh, um, I do remember this, you know, coming from an arts background and, uh, really interested in installation art and video art, how these, um, the different ways we shaped story, um, through these different platforms and devices could create an immersive experience. And so that was really, you know, what like that seeded this interest. And so then I was a film director and writer and producer for many years, and I was always frustrated at how limited and contained it was, even though I love the craft and form.

Angie Abdilla (00:03:39) - It was still compared to, um, the experience of making him of the capacity of immersive contemporary art. It was very limited, I thought. And so, so when I started seeing these different ways that, that the film industry was shifting, I started thinking, well, we have to, I have to beam to think more deeply about this and, and to cause this there’s an important shift happening, and I need to be part of that. So, yeah, that’s really how the company came about. I mean, there was a whole bunch of other different projects that kind of led me on this journey. Um, one of which was a, a role that I was doing many years ago now in, for the national center for indigenous excellence. Whereas leading this initiative called the indigenous digital excellence initiative. And through that role, I was fortunate enough to explore what the, where the, what I considered to be the most, um, important new technologies that could be important for our communities. And so back then I was thinking about, well, I was really interested in robotics, 3d printing and gamification. And so I developed these prototype workshops.

Angie Abdilla (00:04:50) - For, um, for young kids, for Aboriginal kids to introduce this concept of code and how we work with code and these different forms. And so the most successful out of those workshops was the robotics workshops, which then was the springboard for writing a research paper with fiber culture journal was a special edition on robotics and that, um, was a peer reviewed paper. And it was really exploring. I mean, it was a sort of, I guess, a summary of what the prototype workshop was, but really it was a, it was an opportunity to delve deeper into what are indigenous knowledge systems and pattern thinking. And how can those, how can we think about the possibilities of new emerging technologies beyond this access and participation in gender that most people kind of foist on Aboriginal people and think more about how our knowledge systems, our cultural knowledges and knowledge systems can inform the conception, design and development of technology.

Angie Abdilla (00:05:55) - That’s really what was the beginning of the company. Um, but that’s really, you know, the, the, the company itself was founded by my uncle and I say, he’s passed away last year, but he was a total futurist. He was a law man initiated law man. And, um, but a total futurist; not at all scared of technology, like just excited by the possibilities. Like, you know, he’s always talking about quantum physics and there, and its relationship to indigenous knowledges and how, how relevant it was and how, you know, he was, um, he was a poet, he was many things, but he had this incredible ability to see different possibilities. And he was really the driving force, uh, to guiding the formation of the company. Really.

Joel Stern (00:06:44) - I read his biography on the website and it sounds like a remarkable man and yeah, you are very lucky to have had, uh, a mentor like that. Um, I wonder if you could, um, talk a little bit about country centered design and pattern thinking, um, you already brought up, brought up pattern thinking, um, and in, in the last answer and they’re two sort of concepts that, you know, inform the methodology really strongly, um, how do they kind of operate in your work and, and what are the imperatives?

Angie Abdilla (00:07:22) - Mm, so pattern thinking, um, as I wrote about in that first research paper, um, is a way for us to understand, to, I guess, um, articulate the interrelationship and interconnections of all things. And, you know, this is very relevant to, I guess, physics and quantum physics. So if you think about Australia as a living organism and massive, um, is the continent is held together by this, this network of some lines that intersect and interconnect. And they all come from this one central place, which is, um, some say the womb, some say the navel, and that’s all, there’s some lines come out from that place and they hold the continent together. In a sense, what I describe it as like the central nervous system, your country, when you look at that as an entire network within all of that, there’s a, on a macro level, there’s a way of understanding the, um, the didactic nature of the con of the continent.

Angie Abdilla (00:08:31) - So there’s different purpose for those different, the different, um, areas of this very vast land it’s dry and arid parts. We’ve got salt, water, fresh water. We have the, the top parts of the continent, uh, um, rainforest and actually the lungs of the continent and the bottom Tasmania and kangaroo Island like the feet. And then you have the womb in the middle, you know, so it it’s a living organism in itself in its own, right? On a macro level, on a microscopic level, the, those interrelationships and interconnections within that, within the continent go down to, you know, the, my relationship to, from where I’m sitting right now to the, to the Harbor, to the mountains and, and otherwise, you know, like it’s a way of, um, we’re all interrelated and interconnected, you know? And so it’s much more, I guess, obvious for, I guess, another way of understanding that is through the kinship system. And it’s much more obvious for mainland, um, the mainland continent, because it’s, those connections are very, still very much still connected. Whereas we’ve, you know, for in Tasmania, we’ve been disconnected physically.

Angie Abdilla (00:09:50) - For 12,000 years, but also disconnected through the decimation of our culture by just in the last 200 years. I mean, it is only the last 200 years and those connections are still there, but it is a reality. So the, so there’s different ways of understanding, pattern thinking. And what I talked about in that paper was how to the two different, like, I guess from, um, anthropological kind of perspective, it’s, you know, think about epistemologies and ontologies in some ways, you know, indigenous ways of being, knowing, seeing, sensing, doing it’s all kind of the, it kind of collapses in, on each other as the one thing when you’re able to be in that, in that state of connection. So there’s pattern thinking and what I, what my uncle also used to talk about was pattern recognition. And that for me is the it’s like the mother tongue it’s for me, you know, um, have grown up in a post-colonial society.

Angie Abdilla (00:11:00) - So I’m, I’m learning those cultural practices again, but there are still a lot of people that still have that really strong in a way, you know, like that Mo the mother tongue it’s like the mother tongue of seeing pattern recognition is the sort of saying sensing, doing the mother tongue of that. So I guess, um, all of that work and that quite deep sort of philosophical kind of framing really was foundational for, for understanding that there was, uh, there’s a vast amount of knowledge that, uh, that can support the conceptual design and development of technologies that have these principles of caring for country and caring for kin and, and law. They’re really kind of deep, quite, um, intricate law that, that holds different communities together in different country together. So what I saw was is this very obvious pathway that we could start working with that law, working with those knowledges as our people have done for thousands of years into design different solutions to complex problems, that’s, what’s always happened. And so why should we not be doing, continuing to do that, but with new emerging technologies?

Sean Dockray (00:12:30) - Yeah, I think that, um, that relational thinking that’s sort of at the heart of, uh, the knowledge that you’re describing is, is clearly something that like science and technology kind of developed in a kind of Euro European context is like catching up too in so many ways, because that whole scientific project has been based in kind of separating and analyzing and looking at things in isolation. And only now, only recently, I feel like scientists and engineers are sort of realizing, Oh, in order to do anything about the complex problems, we have to look at relationships between things, you know, so as if it’s a big and novel discovery. And so, but this relational thinking as you’re describing is just part of indigenous style, culture and knowledge in order to be able to apply that to the kind of conception and design part of projects, which you emphasized at the beginning. And I just see it’s so important to get in at the stage of conception and not sort of like cleaning up the problem or operating in a tiny little silo, but actually being able to, to conceive, to, to operate at that place where you have access to lots of different, um, parts of the problem. Has it been hard for you to make that kind of like, um, argument or like, how do you go about being able to get to operate at that stage of conception? Do you know, does that question make sense?

Angie Abdilla (00:13:59) - So the company was, has two arms. We are a consultancy and we generate a rare proprietary limited company and a social enterprise. So the consultancy arm works within the built environment and the cultural sector, delivering services in a lot of ways to working on large infrastructure projects, uh, very much with, you know, the engineering and the engineering and technologies and how they reside within place. It’s a place making, and I would say the, the shaping of those projects. So that’s on one level, those profits then support the research and development works. And so the whole formation of the indigenous protocols and artificial intelligence working group was funded by all of those projects, along with some other funders. But prior to that,

Angie Abdilla (00:14:52) - The profits also supported a book. We wrote called Decolonizing the Digital: Technology as Cultural Practice. Prior to that, it was also the funding also supported the, um, the very first research paper, which also was kind of foundational to the establishment of the company. It was a little bit sort of chicken and egg in some ways, but I guess though, that’s important to just note because the, yes, it is hard and it’s not, it’s not like this has just happened overnight. We’ve spent years and years and years setting up the foundations to enable us the position that we’re in right now, where we’re able to work with various different partners who have capacity to, to work with S w work with us on that level. But it takes time and it takes trust and it takes deep working relationships that don’t, then it just doesn’t happen overnight.

Angie Abdilla (00:15:49) - So some of those projects, like for example, um, we were working with the Barangaroo delivery authority, which changed over to net is now known as infrastructure, new South Wales and what we were, one of the projects we’ve worked on and it was called the big sky. And essentially what it is, is a large scale public art installation. But what it does is, um, it’s still in, um, it’s kind of on hold at the moment because there’s a whole heap of work being still being signed off on underneath our site. So outside, which is kind of above ground. Um, there’s a whole site called the cutaway on the internal cavity of the Barangaroo Headland is well, there’s a massive cavity. So because of the planning, ours is on hold, but essentially it’s kind of ready to go. What it is is it’s a experiential way of understanding the interconnection and interrelationship of the sky and the constellations within the best guidance, the star stories and its relationship with the Songlines on.

Angie Abdilla (00:16:57) - So the, the whale dreaming and the sea, so country is those three elements always: it’s the water. So whether it’s fresh water or salt, water is sky and it’s the land, it’s all those three things. And we are part of it and it is part of us. So what we were able to do in that project was to design an, a site and an experience through connecting with those diff those costs on those core Songlines. Um, so the whale dreaming, but then in the sky, the seven sisters. So the seven sisters spans from the West across the whole of the continent. And likewise, the whale dreaming spans from Tasmania all the way up past, even this continent and on like, there’s lots of different indigenous moms that have whale dreaming. So it was really those two really big important Songlines. And when I, that the star constellations are the mirror images of those Songlines.

Angie Abdilla (00:17:56) - So when you look up and see those different constellations in the sky, they are mirror images of what the, where those song lines are and how they learn. So the site itself, um, creates an opportunity for visitors to, to immerse into that, can that, uh, relationship of the whale and the stars through these different, um, technologies embedded within the site. So the methodology we employ for all of our projects, country centered design, what it does, is it frames a process there’s sort of guiding principles. Um, it’s not prescriptive. It’s not, um, because it can’t be, and I’m always really reticent to documenting it because as soon as, you know, we do, it becomes problematic, but essentially what it is is there’s four core processes, which is culture, research strategy, and tech to culture. Some of the activities always start with working with custodians, knowing whose country you’re on, and how do you develop a relationship, a deep relationship with that country you’re working with, what’s the, you know, one of the ways of mapping it and how do you, um, how do you know it then it’s, um, developing up a rich, uh, knowledge base of those, of those cultural practices and protocols and right, and rituals that come from that country, that clan group and how those different they’re different community members you’re working with can support that process.

Angie Abdilla (00:19:30) - That then helps us to inform the research component. So the traditional knowledge and that other associated researchers that can come, can support that piece, which then informs the strategy. So how we design out the solution and we do all sorts of various different, you see all sorts of different techniques and futuring and, um, interaction design, and all sorts of different modalities are used.

Angie Abdilla (00:19:56) - Two then finally, only once we’ve gone through that quite intense process, we get to the, what are the right technologies for the context? What is the cultural foundations that we’ve established to develop a conceptual framework and the creative strategic design interventions that then can inform the right technologies for the context. And so in that, for this project, it was, um, it was predominantly a sound experience yet. And these, there is a massive dome that has thousands of led lights programmed inside the dome to help you navigate where the stars are, but predominantly there’s different sound technologies that, um, like bone conducing technologies that and variety of other different, couple of other different, different things that help channel these different stories sounds and experiences through you to connect to these different elements. So the dreaming stories, the soundscapes, and then the other contemporary stories. So that’s more on the aspect of, and then on the other end of the spectrum, we’ve done projects like with, um, you know, on a precinct level.

Angie Abdilla (00:21:11) - So we’ve done quite a few of those where we’re designing entire precincts, where often there’ll be a train station at the heart of it there’ll be the, as a public domain element, there’s retail strategy. There’s a often there’s, um, residential, private and social sometimes. Um, and otherwise, so these have been complex X, big precincts need to be designed. And so we often are working on those pre large projects from the early conception part where we think about what is the origins of this place. So a recent example, we’ve been working on a project, a master plan for Macquarie park, which is one of Wallumettagal country. So that Klan group, uh, the Wallumettagal is the, um, is the people of the black snapper fish. And so the two core dreamings, uh, the whale, uh, sorry, the, the eel and the black snapper, and they, uh, hold, they kind of have the main boundary lines for that particular clan group.

Angie Abdilla (00:22:17) - And so we designed a whole different array of strategies for how the, the didactic cultural practices can inform the different strategies for that entire master plan. So, um, the fine grain network. So how does the transport network work? How do we design that around the origins of how the river, their network of the riverways was used? Yeah, there’s a whole bunch of different examples. I can give you on that, but that’s, I guess the, sort of the, the two ends of the spectrum of how we work in these different projects and how that methodology country centered design is. And it enables us the process that ensures that we’re always developing a really, um, strong integrity within the cultural foundations for the conceptual framing, the strategic design, and then the technology intervention.

James Parker (00:23:13) - That’s so interesting, Angie. Um, and as you’re speaking, I’m just thinking everything you’ve said sounds like, you know, you’d never hear it from a Google exec, you know, or an Apple exec, uh, and that, you know, something like, you know, Oh, you know, obviously sadly, um, but that, you know, w we’ve been interested in Machine Listening as, you know, it’s sort of embedding itself into our homes and our, and our cities and, uh, and so on. And part of the conceit of it is, you know, a kind of placelessness that it can just be rolled out anywhere. And that one home is the same as another, and all sorts of things happen then, you know, because you don’t design for accent or language, and you’re certainly not designing for country when you design for something like Alexa. Yeah. I just wondered if I don’t know how, I don’t know how, I don’t know what would be a way in to comment on that.

James Parker (00:24:13) - Um, because it just seems like a complete that, that the two approaches are completely anathema that, you know, that big Tex business model is big because it’s kind of colonial or Imperial is precisely not interested in those questions that you’ve been talking about. But, but yet when you speak, you sound, you speak very optimistically about technology and you talk about your uncle being a futurist and so on. And I wondered if you could comment on how to hold those different things together. They’re kind of the place and listeners or country listeners of so much big tech thinking and what, what interests you?

Angie Abdilla (00:24:52) - Oh, well, I think you’re bang on, I mean, what you’re highlighting as well as the, this, um, the normative language that comes with.

Angie Abdilla (00:25:01) - Bodiless stateless knowledge that drives these, um, I guess the it’s Imperial technology drive, you know that, yeah. I mean, I, I don’t know. I think that the, yeah, I’m really optimistic. I think that there’s, what’s, what’s really apparent to me is that there’s so many different organizations right now. Like we’re seeing within COVID crumbling because they’re, they’re not sustainable the actual systems themselves, the business models that they operate within, uh, completely unsustainable and they’re, and they’re, they’re really suffering and now’s the time to let them crumble them. I say, I mean, there’s, you know, it’s a really tricky, it’s a pretty hard line because of course there’s people’s lives that, that are entwined within those big systems. But, um, what’s, I think what’s the, at the heart of the, the unsustainability of those systems, whether it be, um, a corporate organization or a technology platform or something else is how devoid of culture they are and the cultural protocols that shaped their identity and shaped who they are, how they operate and the, the, and I mean, they’re not devoid of culture.

Angie Abdilla (00:26:32) - They’re just the culture within them is really toxic. And so that’s why I think a lot of these large entities or systems and, or systems, uh, failing, because there’s no integrity that’s holding them together. So I know that’s really kind of, that might be a little bit esoteric, but, um, yeah, that’s what I think is different to the work that we do is that where, and I don’t want to sound really Ernest, but that’s, that’s what I know has sustained our people and how this country has nurtured us for so many thousands of generations is because of our culture. It’s the culture and it’s those protocols within our, within our law and within country that has sustained us. And so that those are the protocols that inform everything, how we have designed these technologies over thousands of years, like the boomerang fish traps, spinifex resonant worlds, you know, there’s so many different examples of those different technologies that have been designed with such that it absolutely imbalance and in harmony and, uh, a symbiotic relationship with, with country, you know, so there’s this, you, you don’t ever take more than what you can, what you need, but there are times though there are, there are needs for, there are reasons to take more.

Angie Abdilla (00:28:17) - And so there are different protocols around that. Yeah. So the, I mean the actual concept that a lot of environmentalist’s have have supported over time. Doesn’t, doesn’t really align with indigenous ways of being, and thinking and knowing, and seeing and doing, we don’t lock country up as thing that needs protecting there’s a, it’s far deeper and far more complex than that. And so, you know, we work with it. It gives us as much as we in. So yeah, it’s a, it’s a relationship. So it’s the same thing with technology, you know, and I think, you know, you talked about something earlier about, um, how do we develop meaningful relationships with technology and in particular, when thinking about Machine Listening? No, my uncle once said to me that, you know, we’ve gotta be really careful about the types of, um, AI that we’re developing, because where w w we’re potentially going to be creating another enslaved race.

Angie Abdilla (00:29:25) - Cause, you know, if you think about, um, AI as a, a lot of, a lot of indigenous peoples actually do believe that there is sentience within, within maybe deep learning and general AI, you know, there’s, it can be, that can be, you know, debated for awhile. But, um, but I do believe that there’s, that we’re heading down a road where there, there is the capacity for these technologies to have a different light force. And so then therefore the question needs to be asked, like, what, what are we creating if we are creating another life, another.

Angie Abdilla (00:30:03) - Life force. Then we’ve got to be really mindful about, you know, the, the, the ethics around, you know, those different types of technologies and their role and their place and how we as humans relate to them.

Joel Stern (00:30:18) - Um, thanks Angie. Um, for those thoughts, um, one of the essays that you mentioned when we chatted on the phone last week, um, the, um, Making Kin with Machines was re was really, um, stimulating to, to, to read that into, to kind of go deeper into those questions of, um, human Machine interrelations and the sort of ethical implications of that I’m aware. We’ve just got a few minutes left. So I wanted to ask a, kind of a more speculative, um, kind of question about Listening technologies and, you know, if you were to sort of, um, sit down and think about Listening technologies or indeed, you know, Aboriginal technologies of Listening that have a rich set of cultural protocols already existing, but thinking about technologies of Listening through that prism of countries and to design, you know, what, what would those technologies ideally do? What, what would they produce? Like how might they be used? And I think that’s a very big question, but, um, from, from our perspective, if we could get you to think that through then it would be a really amazing contribution to this project and, and something that, you know, would be really special.

Angie Abdilla (00:31:44) - So if you haven’t heard of the message stick

Joel Stern (00:31:47) - A little bit better. Yeah. Could, could you,

Angie Abdilla (00:31:50) - Uh, so the message stick is often, um, it’s a, it’s a stick and it’s got lots of different, uh, symbols carved within it. And it’s used as a, as a communication tool. So it’s, um, it’s embodied knowledge, but the, so that it’s often, you know, it was used for various different communication reasons, but, um, but the, the message is also used as a, as a way of, of holding space as well. So when yarning circle, there are different ways you can facilitate and hold the yarning circle. And those protocols are, are really important for, for establishing, I guess, uh, um, deep Listening. So, so in, in those cultural practices, there are, there are design opportunities for different emerging technologies. And if we look at the benefits of, you know, what comes from what comes out of the, of a yarning circle, they’re amazing with that when they’re facilitated really, really well.

Angie Abdilla (00:33:02) - And what they enable is for people to speak deeply, um, in ways that I’ve never really seen before actually. But there’s also another element that goes with that yarning circle. That what, what we do is we teach people how to make string for, for weaving. So there’s something in the act of actually doing something with your fingers, like knitting or wood, there’s many different things you can do that very active using your hands while in a yard, while in a circle sharing is kind of creates a, a different way that you can open, open up. And so all of these cultural practices can help us to think about what are the, what are the different ways that we can think about the design, the consent, the intent, and the need, and the can, the conception and design of these new, um, Listening technologies. I think that there’s incredible opportunities to, to embrace AI for those different reasons, but also, you know, too, we need to also really critically think about, well, how, what form of AI, you know, there’s this assumption that it’s Machine learning or deep learning on general AI and, and that’s pretty much, you know, those are, that’s what we’re, that’s what we have.

Angie Abdilla (00:34:25) - And yeah, that’s currently what we have, but it’s not to say that there’s, you know, we should start thinking about what as indigenous peoples. And this is what this whole work is really about. And the indigenous protocols and artificial intelligence work is what is the AI that for, that we want to design for the future and how, what are the protocols that embody it? And what are the ways we understand? What are the protocols that inform the way we, we care tech for knowledge and how are they being replicated within a synthetic environment and for, and how do we.

Angie Abdilla (00:35:07) - How, yeah. What are we saying yes. To when we’re allowing that knowledge to become data

Joel Stern (00:35:14) - The indigenous protocols, artificial intelligence paper, um, is, is amazing. Um, it’s really an incredible resource. There was a, um, quote, I think Dr. Noelani Arista that really stood out where she said, um, the key will be to ensure that the intellectual architecture preserved orally and textually by our ancestors helps shape the computational architecture of, of our digital technologies. And I thought that, you know, maybe sh she was hinting at, um, you know, like language and cultural preservation that could be, um, enabled by AI. And in fact, one of the people we spoke to at Mozilla who was working at Mozilla in, in, um, voice recognition, um, pointed to this as a specific use that, um, voice assistance might be able to assist in language preservation and conservation sort of, do you have a sense of what the kind of opportunities and sort of, um, challenges obstacles might be for a project like that?

Angie Abdilla (00:36:18) - Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think on one hand, I think it’s so important because, you know, coming from Tasmania, we had all of our languages were decimated. And so right now there’s a language revitalization program happening piecing together the nine different languages into one, one dialect. And it’s not perfect. It’s not, you know, we’ve only got journals to go from. And so imagine if there was a different, um, archive, however, um, what’s really important is the protocols that underpin knowledge transmission in the first place. So there’s cultural practices and protocols that inform how you, you know, when you’re ready for that knowledge is super important. So, I mean, it’s kind of different with language when you’re learning it again as a second, not as your mother tongue, but as a second language in that scenario, I think, yes, we should. We just need to preserve our languages, but we also need to, it’s a living culture, so we need to be practicing them.

Angie Abdilla (00:37:24) - Um, so it’s not, so the pre preservation is always a bit sticky for me, you know, um, when you have a living culture, it’s about the actual act of it. It’s the practicing of, and so technology right now often is about, um, cultural preservation or protection instead of cultural practice. So I think that’s the, one of the key differences with the book that we wrote decolonizing, the digital technology as cultural practice. Once again, it’s, you know, it’s not the same agenda of, um, access participation, preservation. One of that, it’s very, it’s a very different agenda and it’s not like I’m, poo-pooing the whole, like all of it, but it’s, but we need to, we need to invest in another agenda equally as much, which is about agency and autonomy and the systemic change that can be created by, by developing different types of systems and technologies that come from, from those, the systems that are inherent to this country and the co and the cultural practices that are part of those. So the actual designing and developing of those technologies becomes part of the culture.